women* welcome here

[emchy]

see that asterisk? it's a problem. there are folks in our community who think that it's a good idea to essentially asterisk the definition of woman by what people have as their genitals. i disagree. transwomen are women. butch women are women. qenderqueer women who ID as women and genderqueer - still women. if you ID as woman - you are woman. it's not mine or anyone else's to decide. that i strongly believe.

that said - is there a value to women born with vaginas having private meetings - sure. just as there is value to women who have had vaginoplasty having private meetings, fat women having private meetings, transwomen having private meetings, etc. Any definition of identity can usually find some benefit from sharing their experience with a group of people that closely mirror their own experience. There is validation in that. There can be growth and learning. There is also growth and learning from sharing experience with people whose experience is similar to yours and yet also markedly different. Again there can be growth and learning.  And from meeting with people whose experience you assume is 100% different - still - growth and learning. It's about being open to it.

Any meeting with people whose minds are open and whose hearts are invested in connection and / or growth tends to have a positive outcome of some sort (even if it's not immediately seen and is more long term).

All this is to say - that I believe that when a group like the Chasing Amy Social Club puts itself out there as a resource for bisexual women, including as a presence at the Pride Parade and posting in many non-exclusionary bisexual spaces - it becomes problematic that they are not clear about their specific desire to be a social group for women who specifically born with vaginas or have had vaginoplasty. They do not include any woman who has not had surgery to make their parts fit this specific definition of woman.

I do not agree with defining women by their genitals period.


The experience of a friend of mine, artist, community organizer, etc is available at the bottom of this post behind a cut if you want more details about the specifics re what happened when she asked if she would be welcome at this social club.

While the crux of the issue is the adoption of the transphobic osento policy** as the Chasing Amy Social Club policy. I think this is even a little more problematic. As opposed to Osento - where nudity is a factor and everyone arguably is able to view other peoples bits, from my  understanding***, people don't tend to get naked at the CASC gatherings. Making the already problematic definition by genitals even more troublesome. Are they going to start pantsing women at the door in case the question of which genitals they're carrying isn't clear?

Any group has the right to assemble. Anyone has the option to support or not  support that group. However I would hope that given some of the attention the CASC is getting - they would at least become more open about their policies so that women could decide to attend or not based on their feelings towards that policy and the pesky asterisk that it involves.

**ETA - I should make it clear that I am not arguing that the Osento policy is correct or appropriate - rather making the distinction that a bathhouse and a fully clothed social group have different dynamics at play.

***ETA 2 - I do not know for a fact if people do or do not get naked at CASC gatherings. My understanding was that it was more of a social gathering and less of a sexual charged or (and i do say OR here) naked sort of atmosphere - acknowledging that there can be non-sexual naked socializing. if so this doesn't change my opinion on the policy. it just makes it clearer exactly how they are landing themselves in the osento policy camp.

I'm sorry to bring negativity into your lives, but I've been having an
unfortunate exchange with Amy Larson, who organizes the Chasing Amy
Social Club. The CASC is a social organization for bisexual women. The
Club has been around for several years, but recently has become more
high-profile. It had its own float in Pride this year. And Amy has
been quoted in articles about the bisexual community. As other local
bisexual organizations appear to be waning somewhat, Amy seems to be
stepping up more as a spokesperson for the bi community.

That's why it's troubling that Amy and her group seem determined to
cling to bigoted and exclusionary policies. I wrote to Amy to ask
about joining her group. She replied that the club only lets in
transgender women who have had genital reconstruction surgery. She
said the Club's policy is based on Osento, the women-only spa in the
Mission. But in fact, it's the same policy the Michigan Wymyn's Music
Festival has had since the late 1990s.

I wrote Amy a long email back, explaining why I felt this policy was a
mistake and sent the wrong message. In a nutshell:

- It's somewhat insulting to transgender folk (and everyone else!) to
define us entirely according to our genitals
- A lot of people can't afford GRS, or don't want to undergo surgery
for medical or personal reasons
- What's between my legs is my own business, and doesn't really
influence my interactions with the rest of the world, except in a few
circumstances
- Osento's policy has caused a lot of controversy, and boycotts, in
the women's community, and isn't really a "middle of the road" approach.

I didn't hear back from Amy for a couple of weeks, so I finally
blogged about this issue. You can read my blog post here:

http://charliegrrrl.livejournal.com/157733.html

Pretty soon after that blog post went up, Amy wrote to me and asked if
I would have coffee with her. As soon as she asked me to coffee, I
stopped blogging or discussing the situation publicly. Amy and I went
back and forth a few times, but never quite managed to meet for
coffee. I wrote to her the other day to ask if she still wanted to
have coffee, and she responded with a long angry email accusing me of
trying to "make an example out of her" instead of having a dialogue.
She was upset about my blog post, even though I'm pretty sure she must
have seen it before she suggested coffee.

Anyway, she's no longer interested in having a dialogue with me about
the Chasing Amy Social Club's anti-trans policies. Which is
unfortunate. I'm really not interested in making an example of anyone.
And I'm not actually interested in joining her club at this point.

But I would like her to post, on the club's website, what its policies
on transgender people are. Ideally, I would like her to post something
on her site saying that "all self-identified women" are free to join
her club. Or words to that effect. If she does that, I'll never bother
her again. (Because she screens potential members by phone, she can
actually exclude whoever she wants. But she shouldn't be able to
exclude people according to their genitalia.)

What you can do to help:

- spread the word amongst your friends and comrades
- write to Amy [amy@...] and let her know what
you think
- blog about this issue and post on email lists. The more public
discussion, the better.

Honestly, I've been a bi activist for a long time -- much longer than
I've identified as transgender -- but things like this make me want to
ditch the bi community altogether. But if Amy agrees to change this
policy, it'll make me feel a lot more welcome in the community as a
whole. Thanks for reading this whole long email!

Best regards,
Charlie Jane Anders

Comments

[postmaudlin.livejournal.com]

the osento policy is still offensive and asinine, even though it's slightly more "justifiable".

[cindymonkey.livejournal.com]

i agree. didn't mean to make it sounds like i thought it was ok.

i mean osento's policy is all about (to my understanding) the idea that seeing the transgenitals of an MTF woman would be triggering.

By that logic if you're having a genital based policy, which assumes that seeing the genitals are triggering to people, when you can't see the genitals... well - how are the "triggering" genitals that you can't see still "triggering"

and of course - the policy assumes no one who would have the "wrong" genitals would pass doesn't it? otherwise there would have to be some sort of genital display test to join.

Why be a member if you are not wanted?

[(Anonymous)]

Is Chasing Amy a government sponsored club? Department of Health? Non-profit receiving federal funding? My guess is "NO?" If I called and she said I could not come to HER HOUSE or join her table at a public venue, I think she is well within her rights to say "no." If you feel you are a woman even though you still have a penis, I am proud of you because it takes great courage to come "out."
Chasing Amy is not the ENEMY of trans women or men or anyone else. Furthermore, picking on CASC only keeps groups that support marginalized communities from forming and being "OUT." Surely there must be a group for MTF's that identify as bisexual? And if not, START ONE, that's what Amy did for what she couldn't find.

Re: Why be a member if you are not wanted?

[cindymonkey.livejournal.com]

this club is presented as a community resource. i simply think that as a community resource that markets itself as such it's policies should be clearly stated on their website.

i made no claims as to anyone's enemy or hostility status. in fact i explicitly stated above that there can be good growth and connection found in any group. i simply would ask that those policies that would exclude certain women be made clear so that people can choose whether or not to join a group with all of the information about that group available to them.

you however are posting anonymously and with what seems like a lot of hostility. that doesn't seem very directed towards community building.

[cindymonkey.livejournal.com]

and of course the big and most wrongheaded assumption that i had already addressed was the definition of gender by genitals - but you know how i feel on that

[postmaudlin.livejournal.com]

totes! :)

[mr-heathen.livejournal.com]

amen.

[borggrrl.livejournal.com]

Very well put.

[goodbadgirl.livejournal.com]

Yes. This continuing discrimination against transwomen is absolutely making my blood boil. It is disgusting and unacceptable.

Do you know this for a fact?

[(Anonymous)]

It's my experience, both anecdotal and first hand, that there is quite a bit of nudity or near-nudity at CASC events. I'm not sure where you got the impression otherwise? And, as they say on their website, one of the events they do involves going to Osento. So, how do you propose they include women with male genitalia, but then exclude them from the outings to Osento, without stepping on people's toes? Do you think they should make the group one for women born with vaginas only? Or is your objection more that they aren't clear about who their group specifically caters to?

Re: Do you know this for a fact?

[cindymonkey.livejournal.com]

well - for one. if they wanted to have group outings to osento and not hold osentos policy themselves - it would be as simple as stating before the outing that per osentos policy and women who were not born with vaginas and who had not had reassignment surgery would be allowed in. the places the blame for the policy at osentos feet and then CASC would only have to answer about why they were choosing to still patronise an establishment whose policies did not match their own. which is a different issue.

i do believe that i am not the arbiter of what groups should and shouldn't exist. as i stated above there are needs and benefits that people can gain from meeting with other people who share a very specific identity / experience. if the CASC is intended as it seems to be a resource for a very specific set of bisexual women, then they should be clear in presenting themselves that way. i know this is a small group and that it has helped some women find community. i am not knocking that at all.

however if all bisexual women are not welcome - they should make those parameters clear so that no one tries to put themselves where they're not welcome or where their gender is invalidated for trying to be a part of a social club that doesn't welcome them.

Re: Do you know this for a fact?

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

good answer. You only forgot one thing. anonymous comments are chickenshit.

Re: Do you know this for a fact?

[cindymonkey.livejournal.com]

makes their intention clear at least
if you're gonna have a position
best if you're willing to be open about it so that people can *ahem* assess it on their own with complete information

Re: Do you know this for a fact?

[postmaudlin.livejournal.com]

i propose they don't go to osento, and join the boycott.