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women* welcome here
Aug. 14th, 2007 10:14 amsee that asterisk? it's a problem. there are folks in our community who think that it's a good idea to essentially asterisk the definition of woman by what people have as their genitals. i disagree. transwomen are women. butch women are women. qenderqueer women who ID as women and genderqueer - still women. if you ID as woman - you are woman. it's not mine or anyone else's to decide. that i strongly believe.
that said - is there a value to women born with vaginas having private meetings - sure. just as there is value to women who have had vaginoplasty having private meetings, fat women having private meetings, transwomen having private meetings, etc. Any definition of identity can usually find some benefit from sharing their experience with a group of people that closely mirror their own experience. There is validation in that. There can be growth and learning. There is also growth and learning from sharing experience with people whose experience is similar to yours and yet also markedly different. Again there can be growth and learning. And from meeting with people whose experience you assume is 100% different - still - growth and learning. It's about being open to it.
Any meeting with people whose minds are open and whose hearts are invested in connection and / or growth tends to have a positive outcome of some sort (even if it's not immediately seen and is more long term).
All this is to say - that I believe that when a group like the Chasing Amy Social Club puts itself out there as a resource for bisexual women, including as a presence at the Pride Parade and posting in many non-exclusionary bisexual spaces - it becomes problematic that they are not clear about their specific desire to be a social group for women who specifically born with vaginas or have had vaginoplasty. They do not include any woman who has not had surgery to make their parts fit this specific definition of woman.
I do not agree with defining women by their genitals period.
The experience of a friend of mine, artist, community organizer, etc is available at the bottom of this post behind a cut if you want more details about the specifics re what happened when she asked if she would be welcome at this social club.
While the crux of the issue is the adoption of the transphobic osento policy** as the Chasing Amy Social Club policy. I think this is even a little more problematic. As opposed to Osento - where nudity is a factor and everyone arguably is able to view other peoples bits, from my understanding***, people don't tend to get naked at the CASC gatherings. Making the already problematic definition by genitals even more troublesome. Are they going to start pantsing women at the door in case the question of which genitals they're carrying isn't clear?
Any group has the right to assemble. Anyone has the option to support or not support that group. However I would hope that given some of the attention the CASC is getting - they would at least become more open about their policies so that women could decide to attend or not based on their feelings towards that policy and the pesky asterisk that it involves.
**ETA - I should make it clear that I am not arguing that the Osento policy is correct or appropriate - rather making the distinction that a bathhouse and a fully clothed social group have different dynamics at play.
***ETA 2 - I do not know for a fact if people do or do not get naked at CASC gatherings. My understanding was that it was more of a social gathering and less of a sexual charged or (and i do say OR here) naked sort of atmosphere - acknowledging that there can be non-sexual naked socializing. if so this doesn't change my opinion on the policy. it just makes it clearer exactly how they are landing themselves in the osento policy camp.
that said - is there a value to women born with vaginas having private meetings - sure. just as there is value to women who have had vaginoplasty having private meetings, fat women having private meetings, transwomen having private meetings, etc. Any definition of identity can usually find some benefit from sharing their experience with a group of people that closely mirror their own experience. There is validation in that. There can be growth and learning. There is also growth and learning from sharing experience with people whose experience is similar to yours and yet also markedly different. Again there can be growth and learning. And from meeting with people whose experience you assume is 100% different - still - growth and learning. It's about being open to it.
Any meeting with people whose minds are open and whose hearts are invested in connection and / or growth tends to have a positive outcome of some sort (even if it's not immediately seen and is more long term).
All this is to say - that I believe that when a group like the Chasing Amy Social Club puts itself out there as a resource for bisexual women, including as a presence at the Pride Parade and posting in many non-exclusionary bisexual spaces - it becomes problematic that they are not clear about their specific desire to be a social group for women who specifically born with vaginas or have had vaginoplasty. They do not include any woman who has not had surgery to make their parts fit this specific definition of woman.
I do not agree with defining women by their genitals period.
The experience of a friend of mine, artist, community organizer, etc is available at the bottom of this post behind a cut if you want more details about the specifics re what happened when she asked if she would be welcome at this social club.
While the crux of the issue is the adoption of the transphobic osento policy** as the Chasing Amy Social Club policy. I think this is even a little more problematic. As opposed to Osento - where nudity is a factor and everyone arguably is able to view other peoples bits, from my understanding***, people don't tend to get naked at the CASC gatherings. Making the already problematic definition by genitals even more troublesome. Are they going to start pantsing women at the door in case the question of which genitals they're carrying isn't clear?
Any group has the right to assemble. Anyone has the option to support or not support that group. However I would hope that given some of the attention the CASC is getting - they would at least become more open about their policies so that women could decide to attend or not based on their feelings towards that policy and the pesky asterisk that it involves.
**ETA - I should make it clear that I am not arguing that the Osento policy is correct or appropriate - rather making the distinction that a bathhouse and a fully clothed social group have different dynamics at play.
***ETA 2 - I do not know for a fact if people do or do not get naked at CASC gatherings. My understanding was that it was more of a social gathering and less of a sexual charged or (and i do say OR here) naked sort of atmosphere - acknowledging that there can be non-sexual naked socializing. if so this doesn't change my opinion on the policy. it just makes it clearer exactly how they are landing themselves in the osento policy camp.
